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Is using cdj s cheating

Submitted by riblat on Thu, 25/06/2009 - 9:56pm.
riblat noted

While i love them to death its way easier to mix with cds. 20 $ for one track on vinyl or $2 from beatport, there is no contest. its more fun too. any thoughts..............

--

music is good


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Thu, 25/06/2009 - 11:04pm
CALITRON
remarked
I love Vinyl, but like you

I love Vinyl, but like you say, just on the price difference of a track bought digitally compared to on vinyl means that this is another nail in the coffin for vinyl. But one thing vinyl wins out on is piracy. If Dj'ing was still mainly handled using vinyl then this would protect the dance music producer. Now there is no protection.

Thu, 25/06/2009 - 11:38pm
dj deza
mentioned
No i don't think it's

No i don't think it's cheating i am a vinyl lover but got some cdj's cause there are some tracks that i couldn't get on vinyl that i wanted to mix also some of my favourite record shop's have shut down,plus i have a mortgage so vinyl is very expensive compared to downloads.
What i think is cheating is when people use software to beatmatch their tunes for them, because was what got me fascinated about dj'ing is the fact that the dj could match the beats of two or three records, it's what i enjoy doing getting a nice long mix going knowing that i have two different tracks going in perfect sync (or not lol) still love that feeling weather it's a cdj or turnie doesn't matter as long as i am matching those beats manually i don't feel it's cheating.

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 12:36am
Matt Ingle
remarked
in reply to: No i don't think it's
I'm the other way around now

I'm the other way around now after researching some great classic Trance tracks from around 1996-2005. There are vinyl tracks that you can't get on CD or as digital download because they're so rare. And if you can find a digital recording, it's just fucking horrible quality... Well not what I would get out of a vinyl recorded through Logic Pro Studio 8 anyway...

--

http://www.myspace.com/djmattingle
Gear: Pioneer CDJ 1000 MK III x 2 + Allen & Heath Xone 42 Mixer + Sennheiser HD 25
All promotional CDs are mixed live with listed gear above.

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 12:36am
DJ Dan
noted
Hell no it's not cheating at

Hell no it's not cheating at all, it may not be quite as hard to master as vinyl, but it still takes a hell of alot of time and effort to get good at djing with CDJ's, the die hard vinyl traditionalists may disagree though.

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DJ DAN - Computer Says No

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 7:21am
rhyspdk
remarked
If your heart is pure then

If your heart is pure then the format is inconsequential. The only cheating would be cheating yourself by mixing music for the wrong reasons. It will be obvious to all that your intentions are off kilter no matter how you choose to ply your trade. Use every tool in the box if you feel it will be "for the music".

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 9:24am
djMUTLEY
pointed out
My massive collection is

My massive collection is mainly vinyl, love the sound that vinyl has, better than mp3. But yeah cdj's are awesome with the effects at your fingertips, the timer count down so you can hit your cue points and the general ease of skipping through tracks to find the right one.

I have found that I will burn 2 disks with 40 odd selected tracks that flow well together [80 tracks in total] and be able to crank out a flowing set, and it ways less that a kilogram. If i was to do the same with me vinyl, I would be fast tracking my way to a back problem.

I think for portability and ease the cdjs are the prefered format. But when I need one of those hidded limited BOMBs that I only have on vinyl, then bring out the wax son!!!

I have spent $1000's on vinyl over the years and yes, its a cost thing now and with most [not all] tracks available at beatport or trackitdown, its a no brainer. In saying this though, I still buy approx 5 vinyls a month just for the limited BOMBS that are available.

Vinyl is becoming a forgoten format unfortunately, but I will always pay the good $ to see an act bring out the wax and watch him/her work over a cd junkie ANYDAY! Its like art watching an intense set an seeing wax getting spun and placed in their cover, watching the dj hit the cue point etc, its like moving art!!!

But like in fashion, old things always make a return, and I believe that vinyl will again be #1 [it always has been in my book!!]

Thats my 2 bobs worth!

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 11:25am
Daniel Ben
added
in reply to: My massive collection is
I wouldent realy knw i

I wouldent realy knw i havent used cjds much before. ive played vinyl for many many years now and deeply enjoy the feel and the enjoyment of owning that piece of music. i wouldent say that using cds are cheatin just a diffrent path to take [more cost effective ,easyer to travel with plus they have some pretty sweet features] it would still take skill and knowledge to produce a killer set .how ever i do belive that cdjs have attracted alot [try hards who have little or no love for the music its just the image their after blame jb hi fi]
any way just rememer be true.

1200"s never die

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Fri, 26/06/2009 - 11:43am
riblat
announced
THANKS for the feedback

THANKS for the feedback everyone. we are all into this because we love it. music junkies.. aslong as i am not paying to see someone using laptop because that i can never accept.. manual beatmatching or its not mixing. i will always love my technics but will use the cdj more because i constantly need new music. Has anyone heard of the night life system, automatic computer mixing . in most clubs dont even need a dj anymore. on the goldy we even have ipod dock djs rippin it up NOT..

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music is good

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 12:27pm
in reply to: THANKS for the feedback
Using CDjs is in no way

Using CDjs is in no way cheating. The music is what's important, and CDJs just offer a different FORMAT! You still have to be able to beatmatch, choose quality tracks and sequence properly.

If you use "software", it's a slightly different matter.

I hate this debate.

djluke

Fri, 26/06/2009 - 3:45pm
rhyspdk
added
in reply to: THANKS for the feedback
riblat wrote: aslong as i

riblat wrote:
aslong as i am not paying to see someone using laptop because that i can never accept.. manual beatmatching or its not mixing.

Then get ready for some cozy nights in because it is the future. I am so tired of this debate it bores me to tears. Beat matching does not equate to D.J.'ing and the world is moving on. Get over it. Don't bother reasoning why you think I am wrong on this point because I'm not interested. This argument has happened many times before on this site so just refer to those threads for opinion rather than drag a whole other thread into the quagmire of a pointless discussion.

Oh and by the way your are more likely to pay to "HEAR" someone playing a laptop. For me the musical/aural element outweighs the visual aspect any day.

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Sat, 27/06/2009 - 11:52am
Phaze_5
jabbered
in reply to: riblat wrote: aslong as i
rhyspdk wrote: If your

rhyspdk wrote:
If your heart is pure then the format is inconsequential. The only cheating would be cheating yourself by mixing music for the wrong reasons. It will be obvious to all that your intentions are off kilter no matter how you choose to ply your trade. Use every tool in the box if you feel it will be "for the music".

I agree with both points Rhys has made. He has hit the nail on the head here. I would just like to add one more nail to the coffin before it's closed if I may.

The CDJ debate is well over 10 years old, and the real hardcore vinyl purists were predominantly hip hop DJs & "turntablists" anyway. All the pioneering hip hop DJs are using Serato these days anyway. They were pushing boundaries with what could be done with a "record player" back in the 70s & they're still doing it now with current technology & software.

I started on vinyl 21 years ago & taught myself to beatmatch & scratch before I was old enough to go to clubs & before mix CDs were on the market. I had hardly heard a handful of beatmixes before I taught myself to do it. So if I use a laptop to auto beat match while I mix 6 parts of tracks into 1 track on the fly how does that mean I'm "cheating"? Using a laptop or CDJs does not mean you are "cheating" so long as you are pushing boundaries, being creative & playing from the heart.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It will be interesting to see what comes of this Serato & Ableton creative partnership.

--

Phaze_5

Sat, 27/06/2009 - 4:34pm
rhyspdk
uttered
in reply to: rhyspdk wrote: If your
Ahmen brother! Technology

Ahmen brother! Technology doesn't maketh the DJ....

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Sun, 19/07/2009 - 11:19pm
Jay Berry
uttered
I wouldnt say using cdj's is

I wouldnt say using cdj's is cheating, however using abelton with the auto beatmatch function is another story..

Sun, 19/07/2009 - 11:28pm
rhyspdk
mentioned
in reply to: I wouldnt say using cdj's is
Jay Berry wrote: I wouldnt

Jay Berry wrote:
I wouldnt say using cdj's is cheating, however using abelton with the auto beatmatch function is another story..

Blah blah blah............... what story would that be? when are people going to get it, beatmatching isn't D.J.'ing.

Jay you list Richie Hawtin as one of your favorite D.J.'s, is he cheating when using Ableton or Traktor? Trust me it's all warped and synced a long time before he hits the stage. Are you going to be disappointed with his performance or call him a cheat?

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Mon, 20/07/2009 - 10:58am
Phaze_5
brought up
in reply to: Jay Berry wrote: I wouldnt
rhyspdk wrote: Blah blah

rhyspdk wrote:
Blah blah blah...............

The techincal aspect of DJing & beatmatching in particular is the simplest & most fundamental aspect & the first thing any DJ should learn.

  • Reading the crowd
  • Compromise - Finding the balance of your sound & what the audience wants to hear
  • Rocking the dancefloor
  • Finding your own unique sound
  • Programming 6 hour sets & keeping the dancefloor
  • Crate digging/Digital digging
  • Music Theory
  • Key Mixing
  • Producing your own tracks
  • Understanding the culture & the history
  • Rocking difficult crowds
  • Playing multiple genres
  • Practice & experience
  • Pushing boundaries & taking it to the next level
  • Being true to yourself
  • A true love for the music & the culture

These are some of qualities that make a good DJ. Whatever tools/technology/methods you use without some of the above mentioned qualities you're only cheating yourself & your listeners.

--

Phaze_5

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 10:50am
Jay Berry
explained
in reply to: Jay Berry wrote: I wouldnt
rhyspdk wrote: Jay Berry

rhyspdk wrote:
Jay Berry wrote:
I wouldnt say using cdj's is cheating, however using abelton with the auto beatmatch function is another story..

Blah blah blah............... what story would that be? when are people going to get it, beatmatching isn't D.J.'ing.

Jay you list Richie Hawtin as one of your favorite D.J.'s, is he cheating when using Ableton or Traktor? Trust me it's all warped and synced a long time before he hits the stage. Are you going to be disappointed with his performance or call him a cheat?

rhys, I would love to know exactly where i stated that 'if you cant beat match your not a DJ.' And yea I do think using abelton is slack both for the DJ and the performance in general.

Have you ever noticed how bored most DJs look when using a program to mix, and when a DJ looks bored with their own music it kills the vibe and 9 times out of 10 the crowd will get bored.

There have already been a shitload of DJ's caught surfing the net and checking their emails while 'mixing.' Hell Richard James was caught playing warcraft 3 on his 2004 big day out tour

And for your information Richie Hawtin doesn't use abelton, he uses traktor.. lol

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 5:04pm
rhyspdk
rabbited on
in reply to: rhyspdk wrote: Jay Berry
Jay Berry wrote: And for

Jay Berry wrote:
And for your information Richie Hawtin doesn't use abelton, he uses traktor.. lol

No he uses both Ableton and Traktor it just so happens that he gets paid more by N.I. to promote Traktor at this moment in time. He along with John Aquaviva developed Final Scratch the forerunner to Traktor but has used Ableton since its release (he even hand built, along with his dad, some of the first dedicated midi control surfaces for Ableton long before Sasha laid hands on it). Richie is a smart cookie and knows where his bread is buttered and will let you know what technology he's using as long as the cheques keep rolling in. He as well as many other DJ's combine the functionality of both programs. Hell even Cian from Supper Furry Animals runs both on stage.

As far as you saying beatmatching not making you a DJ, you are saying that if you allow the technology to assist you with this "it's cheating". Why? Have you ever seen a DJ using CDJ's but no headphones? I have and it's not that hard. Its possible because most tunes these days are written at pretty standard BPM's and the DJ can label his/her discs with the relevant numbers. From there the DJ looks at the currently playing CDJ's pitch level and makes a simple mathematical calculation to adjust the next CDJ to the appropriate level. Cue points have already been set and then it's bombs away. Is this cheating? Or, is this knowing your tracks and using the knowledge to your advantage.

Jay Berry wrote:
Have you ever noticed how bored most DJs look when using a program to mix

No I haven't. I've seen and heard Richie Hawtin, Henrik Schwartz, King Roc, Marc Houle, Magda, Heartthrob, Glimpse............. the list goes on and on and not one of them ever looked bored to me or anyone else there. All of them were so involved in the music to a degree that I would rate higher than if they were just spinning discs, because, they weren't using the technology to simply replicate the process of DJ'ing, they were branching into a new style of performance, DJ'ing, remixing on the fly, writing new elements to the tracks, right there in front of you. When your doing this you shouldn't have time to check your emails. Most of these performers would have computers dedicated to audio and not able to facilitate online applications. If your just laying pre warped and synced tracks end to end I still don't think it's "cheating" but it's just plain lazy and you'll be found out or get bored with the charade.

As far as Richard James playing Warcraft thats plain rude but I don't blame the technology, if his commitment to the paying audience is so low he would have put exactly the same lackluster effort in no matter what medium he was using. Just because he would have to put a new record or CD on every few minutes doesn't make me think he would give a shit anymore than he did when playing Warcraft. You think every guitarist whacked out on booze and drugs is giving it they're all? No they're just going through the motions. It happens sometimes in any profession.

If you think using Ableton or Traktor or any other program that allows you to bypass or pre empt the beatmatching element of performance is cheating then thats fine, don't use it. Don't go see the performers that do, don't buy the mixes they produce or download their podcasts. Somehow I think you'll come around to their way of thinking a long time before they give a shit what you think. Try doing what they do before saying that it's cheating. Post it here, I'd like to hear the results and compare them to those of these performers you say are cheating. Somehow I don't think you'll be able to do what they do just you use the same programs that do the beatmatching for you. It still requires a lot of skill, practice, forethought and talent to move the crowd.

I use vinyl, CD's and a laptop and respect any one's decision to use whatever tools they feel necessary to get the job done. The quality of the performance lies firmly with them and not the medium.

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 5:17pm
djMUTLEY
stated
in reply to: Jay Berry wrote: And for
WOW man, Awesome!! I like

WOW man, Awesome!!

I like what you said about the cdj's cue points and knowing the tracks. Nearly all of my cd's have the cues pre-programmed, but I would not yet have the balls to drop the cue without my headphones on....

I dont consider it cheating, just saving time, especialy if the track you have sellected isnt in the right key and you need to find another track post haste. You can easily select the next track at ease with a cue ready to go to bring into the mix..

Havent had any experience with lappy djing yet, apart from playing commercial music at weddings [not mixing].

My mate is a master of Abelton + Reason and is going to tutor me, not for djing [at this point of time] but production. He also said it is limitless when it comes to djing on the fly with live performances because there are so many options, overlays, loops etc that you can do, almost like making a track your own by remixing it on the fly....... now to me that sounds like a skill I want to learn!!

Anyways thats my 2 bits

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 6:44pm
rhyspdk
pointed out
in reply to: WOW man, Awesome!! I like
djMUTLEY wrote: limitless

djMUTLEY wrote:
limitless when it comes to djing on the fly with live performances because there are so many options, overlays, loops etc that you can do, almost like making a track your own by remixing it on the fly.......

And so is turntablism, it's all up to you and how far you want to push its limits and how creative you can get. What irritates me is that so many of the people that say that technology or its syncing facilities is cheating, most of these people when playing are doing nothing more than imitating the same tried and tested mixing routines they have seen and heard from day one in their introduction to mixing music. Pitch up\down, take it back to the first beat, drop on the first beat of a 16 beat phrase, usually crossfade for 3 phrases let them ride 3 more cut the bass on the outgoing tweak the mids and highs on both wait for the drop and pump the bass...... "look at me I'm DJ'ing and I rock!". No originality at all but they think that because they had to pitch it manually it's somehow more valid than going through the same process using newer technology. So tired of this argument, and not one person has provoked a thought that might validate their point. I'm totally open minded to discussing the prop and cons of the issue but from the other side it would seem they are just miffed that a skill that took them some time and effort to develop is now not as essential as it has been in the past.

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 7:11pm
Auzwa
added
in reply to: djMUTLEY wrote: limitless
rhyspdk wrote: it would

rhyspdk wrote:
it would seem they are just miffed that a skill that took them some time and effort to develop is now not as essential as it has been in the past.

Hit the nail on the head right there Rhys....

To add my 2 cents, I love my decks, and hope to be playing with them for quite some time for the only reason that i enjoy it, but i have ableton and im quite keen to see what it can offer me. I feel im getting to a point where I imagine certain things when im playing that i know would sound good, but is simply not possible to do with the 1's & 2's, thats where technology comes in. I for one am looking forward to hearing and seeing what the next stage of electronic music holds for all of us.

Thu, 23/07/2009 - 7:56pm
rhyspdk
noted
in reply to: rhyspdk wrote: Jay Berry
http://www.ableton.com/pages/

http://www.ableton.com/pages/artists/richie_hawtin

This is quite old but I can guarantee he was still using Ableton when I saw him in London last year.

--

Peace in the middle east.............. Rhys.

Fri, 24/07/2009 - 12:53am
geisha
mentioned
in reply to: http://www.ableton.com/pages/
I skipped CDJ's completely

I skipped CDJ's completely and went from Vinyl to Final Scratch and then to Traktor Scratch using the Timecode Vinyl.

I can mix on CDJ's but it just doesn't feel the same for me.

I really don't care if a DJ uses software to beatmatch, but I would get very bored (and probably very drunk) very quickly if i didn't have to concentrate on my mixing during a set.

Downsides? If you play in a club with shitty decks, playback can tend to be erratic (but the decks have to be in really bad nick i.e the tone arm is crap or the contacts are dirty where you screw in the cartridges etc) and that can be somewhat embarrassing.

Fri, 24/07/2009 - 9:05am
DJ_Mikey_D
noted
Not cheating at all, I use

Not cheating at all, I use both, only use turntables for the love, but yeah vinyl is so expensive.
CDJ's are awesome Smiling